The anti-Mormons and the Trinity...Part 2

Yesterday, we learned a little about the Nicene Creed - a creed written by men to try and explain the nature of Christ. This is apparently when the theory of the Trinity developed, for the trinity can be found nowhere in scripture.

But wait...there is another creed to once again try to explain the nature of Christ and the Trinity, and this comes from the Lutheran Church Missouri Synod located here:

https://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=3357

This is what it says: ( The highlights are my own)

Athanasian Creed

Whoever will be saved shall, above all else, hold the catholic faith. Which faith, except everyone keeps whole and undefiled, without doubt he will perish eternally. And the catholic faith is this, that we worship one God in three persons and three persons in one God, neither confusing the persons nor dividing the substance. For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit. But the Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one: the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. Such as the Father is, such is the Son, and such is the Holy Spirit. The Father uncreated, the Son uncreated, and the Holy Spirit uncreated. The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible. The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal. And yet there are not three eternals but one eternal. As there are not three uncreated nor three incomprehensibles but one uncreated and one incomprehensible. So likewise the Father is almighty, the Son almighty, and the Holy Spirit almighty. And yet they are not three almighties but one almighty. So the Father is God, the Son is God, and the Holy Spirit is God. And yet there are not three gods; but one God. So likewise the Father is Lord, the Son Lord, and the Holy Spirit Lord. And yet they are not three lords but one Lord. For as we are compelled by the Christian truth to acknowledge every person by himself to be both God and Lord, So we cannot by the catholic faith say that there are three Gods or three Lords. The Father is made of none, neither created nor begotten. The Son is of the Father alone, not made nor created; but begotten. The Holy Spirit is of the Father and of the Son, neither made nor created nor begotten but proceeding. So there is one Father, not three Fathers; one Son, not three Sons; one Holy Spirit, not three Holy Spirits. And in this trinity none is before or after another; none is greater or less than another; But the whole three persons are coeternal together and coequal, so that in all things, as is aforesaid, the Unity in Trinity and the Trinity in Unity is to be worshiped.. He, therefore, that will be saved is compelled thus to think of the Trinity. Furthermore, it is necessary to everlasting salvation that he also believe faithfully the incarnation of our Lord Jesus Christ. For the right faith is that we believe and confess that our Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God, is God and man; God of the substance of the Father, begotten before the worlds; and man of the substance of his mother, born in the world; Perfect God and perfect man, of a reasonable soul and human flesh subsisting. Equal to the Father as touching his Godhead, and inferior to the Father as touching his manhood; Who, although he is God and man, yet he is not two but one Christ. One, not by conversion of the Godhead into flesh, but by taking the manhood into God;. One altogether, not by confusion of substance, but by unity of person. For as the reasonable soul and flesh is one man, so God and man is one Christ; Who suffered for our salvation; descended into hell; rose again the third day from the dead. He ascended into heaven; he sits at the right hand of the Father, God Almighty, from whence he will come to judge the living and the dead. At whose coming all men will rise again with their bodies and will give an account of their own works. And they that have done good will go into life everlasting; and they that have done evil, into everlasting fire. This is the catholic faith which except a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved. Sorry, and I don't mean to offend anyone, but I get confused just reading that! The one word used in this creed that I find interesting is the word "incomprehensible". In the Merriam-Webster dictionary, one of the definitions of "incomprehensible" is impossible to comprehend and unintelligible. How can any knowledge be attained from that which is not known? And can anyone "know" something incomprehensible? Now, I feel that is the major difference between the anti-Mormons Jesus and the Mormons Jesus. The Mormons Jesus can be understood and He is very intelligent. Mormons also believe that man was created literally in God's image, but the anti-Mormons assert that God is only a spirit, that He can fill the entire universe and sit on the head of a pin. Yet the anti-Mormons have a difficult time explaining what a spirit is. The anti-Mormons like to quote John 4:24 that states that God is a spirit. Again, the anti-Mormons like to take a quote out of text and then adhere to it literally. Ok, let us do just that. If we except that God is just a spirit, then by definition we must exempt Christ from the Trinity because Jesus said in Luke 24:39 "a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have." In Romans 6:9 we read "...Christ being raised from the dead, dieth no more, death hath no more dominion over Him." This means that Christ still has His body, (as many people witnessed as He ascended into Heaven), and to say that He has no body is to say that He has died again. For the anti-Mormons to insist that Christ is part of the Trinity in spirit only is a total denial of Christ's Godhead because Christ has a resurrected body! So, taking this one step further, if Christ is God, then God has a physical body. Period. Mormons believe that Christ was resurrected with His body, and that many of His followers testified that they saw him and that they felt the wounds in His hands and side. Matthew 5:8 says "Blessed are the pure in heart; for they shall see God." I wonder if the anti-Mormons take that verse literally. Incomprehensible?...a spirit only?......Trinity in Unity, and Unity in Trinity?.....I think not. Logic alone tells me that this is not my Christ. The anti-Mormon concept of God was developed a century or more after most of the New Testament was completed. As anyone who studies Christian history will discover, battles and debates over the identity of God lead to creed statements defining God, not to biblical statements defining God. Finally, if the concept of the Trinity is so important, why is it not found anywhere in the Bible? The Bible does not explain how God exists in three persons and yet is one God. The reason the Bible has never mentioned the Trinity is simple because it is not true. The concept of one God with three persons within the one God can only mean that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are each only 1/3 of that one God (1/3 + 1/3 +1/3 = ONE ). Again, logic tells me that God cannot be one and three at the same time. He cannot be both and be real. But it is true that to reject the Trinity as a biblical concept by the Mormons is not the equivalent to rejecting the Bible itself. The Mormons love the Bible, and the Mormons love Jesus Christ and our Heavenly Father. They are two separate beings, and the Spirit has testified to me that this is true. IMHO

The anti-Mormons and the Trinity...Part 1

The purpose of this post, and the next few, is to enlighten and expose the falsehoods perpetrated by the many anti-Mormons that have found new life now that a Mormon is running for President of the United States. But the primary cause for alarm among these anti-Mormons is not Mitt Romney running for President, but the LDS Church's steady growth through the years. The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, as viewed by the anti-Mormons, is the new kid on the block, yet the LDS Church has been experiencing constant and steady growth. Since many of the LDS converts come from Evangelical or other Christian backgrounds, the leaders of these denominations not only feel threatened , but they are losing parishioners and with the parishioners, money. That is the real threat to the anti-Mormons. If it was really about converting people to Christ, these anti-Mormons would be called anti-Islams, anti-Jewish, or anti-Hindu. Anti-Mormons have chosen a negative approach to proselytizing and converting others by attacking the beliefs of others. They do not preach what they believe, but what they do not believe.

This brings us to the Trinity. Interestingly, the word "trinity" is found nowhere in the Bible. The doctrine of the Trinity is not found in scripture, but appeared shorty after the Nicene Creed. The following is taken from here, and those who want to learn more about the early church, will find the Nicene Creed quite interesting:

http://www.creeds.net/ancient/Nicene_Intro.htm

NICENE CREED - Historical Note

In the first three centuries, the church found itself in a hostile environment. On the one hand, it grappled with the challenge of relating the language of the gospel, developed in a Hebraic and Jewish-Christian context, to a Graeco-Roman world. On the other hand, it was threatened not only by persecution, but also by ideas that were in conflict with the biblical witness.

In A.D. 312, Constantine won control of the Roman Empire in the battle of Milvian Bridge. Attributing his victory to the intervention of Jesus Christ, he elevated Christianity to favored status in the empire. "One God, one Lord, one faith, one church, one empire, one emperor" became his motto.

The new emperor soon discovered that "one faith and one church" were fractured by theological disputes, especially conflicting understandings of the nature of Christ, long a point of controversy. Arius, a priest of the church in Alexandria, asserted that the divine Christ, the Word through whom all things have their existence, was created by God before the beginning of time. Therefore, the divinity of Christ was similar to the divinity of God, but not of the same essence. Arius was opposed by the bishop, Alexander, together with his associate and successor, Athanasius. They affirmed that the divinity of Christ, the Son, is of the same substance as the divinity of God, the Father. To hold otherwise, they said, was to open the possibility of polytheism, and to imply that knowledge of God in Christ was not final knowledge of God.

To counter a widening rift within the church, Constantine convened a council in Nicaea in A.D. 325. A creed reflecting the position of Alexander and Athanasius was written and signed by a majority of the bishops. Nevertheless, the two parties continued to battle each other. In A.D. 381, a second council met in Constantinople. It adopted a revised and expanded form of the A.D. 325 creed, now known as the Nicene Creed.

The Nicene Creed is the most ecumenical of creeds. The Presbyterian Church (U.S.A.) joins with Eastern Orthodox, Roman Catholic, and most Protestant churches in affirming it.

It certainly appears that the Trinity concept appeared here, since it cannot be found anywhere in the Bible. Even way back then, the nature of Christ was a controversy.

The anti-Mormons will use predominately the following scriptures to support their concept of the Trinity:

Isaiah 44:6; John 10:30; 1 John 5:7; John 14:5-9

The anti-Mormons adhere literally to these scriptures, but will not accept a literal interpretation of a scripture when it does not fit their needs. And there are a ton of those scriptures that the anti-Mormons won't even discuss.

For example, John 10:30 says "I and my Father are one". The anti-Mormons state that this must be taken literally, as one essence. But a problem arises in the same gospel of John 17:11, when the Jesus "part" of God prays to the Father "part" of God. The anti-Mormons want us to actually believe that God actually prays to himself!

Another example. In Matthew 24:36 and Mark 13:32, Jesus Christ spoke of His coming in glory. He said, "that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only." Using the anti-Mormon belief in the Trinity and the all - in - one - God theory, then I have to believe that the anti-Mormon God is not a truthful God......being the same God as the Father, Jesus had to know the timing of His second coming. Sorry anti-Mormons, but my God is not a liar and He is not the Father in essence, being, person, substance, or anything else.

This is such an interesting subject that I will continue with it tomorrow. IMHO

anti-Mormon $$$

With Mitt Romney running for President of the United States, and with the fact that he just happens to be a member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, AKA, the Mormons, the anti-Mormon literature in the form of pamphlets, books, videos, and blogs has increased proportionately.

Which makes me ponder on why the members of these anti-Mormon churches allow their hard-earned dollars that they give to these churches in good faith, be spent on trying to convert a religious group that already believes in Jesus Christ as their Savior.

These pamphlets, books, videos, DVDs, etc. cost a TON of many to produce….and I have to ask….why??

These donations could be doing so much more good in feeding and caring for the poor, providing vaccines for the ill, wheel-chairs for those in need, and in doing good works for others. But instead, all of these good-faith $$$ are spent in trying to convert members of the LDS Church to their own religious beliefs.

If you are a member of one of these churches, you have to ask yourselves, why aren’t these pamphlets, videos, etc used to convert others who do not believe in Jesus Christ as their Savior. That would include the following religions: Islam, Judaism, Hinduism, and Buddhism to just name a few of the religions of the world who do not believe that Jesus Christ is the Savior. Why are your donation $$$ not spent trying to convert these people to Christianity?

But even a better suggestion for your donation $$$ : give to the needy!

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints does not spend the time and monies on anti-Protestant, or anti-Catholic propaganda. And why is that? Because the LDS members are not donating their $$$ to The Church…..they are donating their money to the Lord. This money is sacred, and only good can come of this money. The LDS Church donates literally millions of $$$ each year to helping the poor and needy.

I just have to believe that this is what Jesus would want His money spent on if He were at the head of His church today. IMHO

The anti-Mormon untruths.........

With a presidential candidate running for president of the United States who just happens to belong to The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, the ant-Mormon literature and untruths have been taken to new lows lately. I wish to only tell you what the LDS Church really believes - from someone who attends church weekly and reads the scriptures daily and is grateful to be a member.

The purpose of the following postings over the course of the next couple of weeks or so will be two-fold : 1. to enlighten those who have an interest in learning more about The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, and 2. to expose anti-Mormon false-hoods.

If you are a member of the LDS Church, I'm sure that you are familiar with all the anti-Mormon literature that is out there. If you are not a member, perhaps my postings will help you understand what we believe in and why - from the mouth of a Mormon and not from the mouth of those who are attacking the LDS Church.

Over the next several weeks, I will post and discuss roughly five different items of concern that the anti-Mormons have with The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, aka, the Mormons :

1. I will discuss the rejection of the Trinity by the LDS Church - explain why, and what we as Mormons believe in, and why we do so.

2. I will discuss the total apostasy of Christ's Church as organized by Him and why there was a need for a restoration vs. a reformation.

3. I will discuss the fact that Mormons do not believe that any of the scriptures known to man are absolutely infallible or complete, and explain/show why that is so.

4. I will discuss salvation through faith alone, and finally,

5. I will discuss the beliefs of Mormons concerning the Holy Spirit.

The purpose of these postings are to enlighten, expose, and learn from. I will not debate, argue, agree or disagree with any one's comments, if there be any. That is not my purpose here. I only want to explain what The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints believes about the various five items under discussion.

These postings will be taken primarily from a book entitled "Guess who wants to have you for lunch?", by Alan Denison and D.L. Barksdale. This book can be purchased here:

http://store.fairlds.org/prod/p1893036057.html

This is a wonderful book and well worth the cost. IMHO

Cool Bible look-up site.............

……..where one can look up words, phrases, or verses from five (5) different versions of the Bible. Cool.

I looked up the word “trinity” and it is not found in any of the five versions available………interesting.

http://www.biblelookup.com

Why the lies ?...bogus political cards.

Bogus S.C. Card Cites Mormon Passages Jim Davenport- Associated Press
01/01/2008 04:06 PM MST

COLUMBIA, S.C. (AP) — Many South Carolina Republicans got a bogus holiday greeting card this week, purported to be from White House hopeful Mitt Romney, that cites some controversial passages of the Book of Mormon.

"We wish you and your family a happy holiday season and a joyful New Year. The Romney family," the card says.

The last page features a photograph of a temple above a box that says "Paid For By The Boston Massachusetts Temple."

Romney's campaign said it had nothing to do with the cards, postmarked Thursday from Columbia with a 41-cent stamp, and Boston Temple President Ken Hutchins said Saturday he first heard about the mailing Friday from a woman in Charleston.

Hutchins said the temple had nothing to do with sending mail to South Carolina Republicans, who go to the polls on Jan. 19 in a key early primary.

"It is sad and unfortunate that this kind of deception and trickery has been employed," said Will Holley, Romney's South Carolina spokesman. "There is absolutely no place for it in American politics."

South Carolina Republican Party Chairman Katon Dawson said he intends to "contact the Federal Bureau of Investigation's Elections Fraud Division and other appropriate authorities, provide them the copy of the mail piece delivered to South Carolina Republicans and ask for a thorough investigation into this matter."

There was no indication how many of the cards were mailed, but Dawson said he got calls from several people who reported receiving them.

"I think it would be nice if somebody got to the bottom of this," Hutchins said.

The card contains passages that underscore some differences between the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and those of denominations that are prevalent in South Carolina.

"We have now clearly shown that God the Father had a plurality of wives, one or more being in eternity by whom He begat our spirits as well as the spirit of Jesus His first born, and another being upon the earth by whom he begat the tabernacle of Jesus, as his only begotten in this world," reads one passage from Orson Pratt, cited on the card as an "original member of the Quorum of Twelve Apostles."

The card also cites a passage on Mary's virgin birth that underscores her race. "And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the great city of Jerusalem, and also other cities. And I beheld the city of Nazareth; and in the city of Nazareth I beheld a virgin, and she was exceedingly fair and white." On the card, "fair and white" are in a bolder, larger font and on a separate line.

Hutchins said the mailing hurts his temple, which, like the parent Mormon church, stays out of politics.

"They have no business using that name or referring to the temple," Hutchins said. "It's a very hurtful thing and creates a misleading impression in peoples' minds." Hutchins said he alerted Tagg Romney, one of Romney's sons, and church authorities about the mailings.

Romney's faith has been a recurring issue in South Carolina, where Christian conservatives dominate the GOP primary. Romney overcame some of those doubts this fall when he picked up an endorsement from Bob Jones, the chancellor of Greenville-based, Christian fundamentalist Bob Jones University.

Such a mailing isn't surprising for South Carolina politics, a state known for political mudslinging and backdoor maneuvering.

Those tactics backfire, said Warren Tompkins, a political consultant who ran George Bush's 2000 campaign in South Carolina and now is Romney's top consultant in the state. "Anything this outrageous and childish and nonsensical would have a significant fallout on whoever did it and on whose behalf it was done," Tompkins said.

Another definition of Christianity.........

This list is Sourced from the Encylopaedia Britannica, Wikipedia, Beliefnet, and Adherents.com (a collection of 43,870 adherent statistics and religious geography citations). The list is based on number of members. For a complete list (which also includes atheism and agnosticism, see the Wikipedia article or the Encylopaedia Britannica chart).

1. Christianity [Abrahamic, 27 AD] 2.1 billion adherents [Wikipedia | Britannica | Beliefnet]

Christianity is a monotheistic religion which is based on the teachings of the Old Testament and Jesus of Nazareth. Christians believe that Jesus, as the Son of God is part of the Trinity (God as three persons in one), the others being God the Father and God the Holy Spirit. Christians believe that Christianity fulfils Judaism. Most Christians believe that the death and resurrection of Jesus to be the cornerstone of their faith. Protestant offshoots of Christianity believe that salvation comes from the belief in God alone, whereas Catholic and Orthodox Christians believe that faith, combined with good works is required for salvation.

The Christian scriptures are called the Bible - comprising two books, the Old Testament (based on the Septuagint) and the New Testament. Protestants and Catholics have the same books in the New Testament, but Martin Luther removed 7 books from the Old Testament during the Protestant reformation, considering them to be apocryphal. He also removed four books from the New Testament but was later persuaded to put them back - they were Hebrews, James, Jude, and Revelation.

Christians believe in Sacraments (Catholics and Orthodox and some Anglicans believe in 7: Baptism, Confirmation, Holy Communion, Confession, Last Rites, Holy Orders, and Matrimony; some Protestants (following Martin Luther) believe in the sacramental nature of Baptism and Holy Communion, while others reject outright the concept of sacramental theology.

Christianity is generally broken into three branches: Roman Catholicism, Eastern Orthodoxy, and Protestantism. Catholicism is the largest with over 1 billion adherents. The Orthodox and Catholic Churches split in the 11th century in an event called the Great Schism. Protestantism split from Roman Catholicism in in the 16th century in an event called the Protestant Reformation.

This article supports my posting entitled :

Which church is correct? Try logic…….